I was a member of the BYU 10th Ward in 1969-71. Stake High Councilman George W. Pace was a former counselor to Bishop Max. L. Waters, Bro Pace taught how important it was to seek a relationship with the Savior, but he never, as you said, taught people to pray to Jesus. Bishop Waters had actually seen Christ. Talk about long sermons. In a student fireside, we were having a Q&A session with the bishopric, and I asked Bishop Waters to talk about his relationship with the Lord and bear testimony of Him. The man spoke for 1.5 hours to a bunch of college students, seated on a hard tile floor in the Heritage Halls.
Their talks inspired me to seek my own relationship with Jesus Christ. The church may be under condemnation, and I believe it is. I am no longer a member of the church, and therefore not under this condemnation. I have been seeking the Lord for the past 50 years. Let’s just say, I have not sought Him in vain.
Moroni 7:36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
Another insightful podcast, thank you both for sharing.
RE: verse 79 “And also this church, to put upon it thy name.” This prayer is directed (“thy”) to one who has many titles. There also many references to Deity. Below is what I found, broken up into those directly addressed, and those referenced:
Directly addressing Deity:
Lord God of Israel (v. 1)
Lord (v. 3, 4, 31, 33, 43, 44, 46-51, 54, 60, 68, 69, 71, 72, 78)
Holy Father (v. 4, 10, 14, 22, 24, 29, 47)
Jehovah (v. 34, 42, 56)
Mighty God of Jacob (v. 68)
God (v. 70)
Lord God Almighty (v. 77)
Indirect references to Deity:
in the name of Jesus Christ (v. 4)
the Son of thy bosom (v. 4)
the Son of Man (v. 5)
a house of God (v. 8, 16)
in the name of the Lord (v. 9, 17, 18, 19)
the Most High (v. 9, 19)
the Messiah (v. 67)
Jehovah (v. 68)
the Lord (v. 75)
God (v. 79)
the Lamb (v. 79)
In the podcast, reference is made to the name change from Church of Christ (1829) to Church of the Latter Day Saints (1834). In response to the pleading from verse 79, it is implied by the prior deletion of “Christ” and the subsequent re-adding of Christ’s name of the church years later (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) that it is Jesus Christ’s name they wanted added back.
QUESTIONS: Since the entire prayer is dedicated to an individual that seems to have the many titles listed above in the first section (“thy”), AND since verse 79 is asking for “…thy name…” to be put upon the Church, I do wonder why Christ’s name was removed then added back, and not derivatives of the names Lord, God, Holy Father, or Jehovah. The name of Jesus Christ was never addressed directly in the prayer. As you contend, they both are one and the same individual, so in my limited view, there seems to be a disconnect.
Also, I wonder why the prayer has INDIRECT references to the names God, Lord, Most High, Jehovah – all of which are used as DIRECT names addressed elsewhere in the prayer. My expectation would be that all indirect references to Deity would be to Jesus, as we are taught to pray to the Father [directly], in the name of Jesus [indirectly].
In answer to why “Christ”, I refer to Moses 6:52 “be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men,” Although there are many names used, only the name Jesus Christ is given for our salvation. We are baptized in that name, we pray in the name, and we shall be called by that name (the church of Christ).
Upon reflection, I think it’s significant that the name Jesus Christ isn’t referenced at all in the prayer…almost as though the church were unworthy to ever utter the name they had not valued and lost the right to in 1834. If we can’t even talk with our advocate, I’d say we’re in a bad place.
I was a member of the BYU 10th Ward in 1969-71. Stake High Councilman George W. Pace was a former counselor to Bishop Max. L. Waters, Bro Pace taught how important it was to seek a relationship with the Savior, but he never, as you said, taught people to pray to Jesus. Bishop Waters had actually seen Christ. Talk about long sermons. In a student fireside, we were having a Q&A session with the bishopric, and I asked Bishop Waters to talk about his relationship with the Lord and bear testimony of Him. The man spoke for 1.5 hours to a bunch of college students, seated on a hard tile floor in the Heritage Halls.
Their talks inspired me to seek my own relationship with Jesus Christ. The church may be under condemnation, and I believe it is. I am no longer a member of the church, and therefore not under this condemnation. I have been seeking the Lord for the past 50 years. Let’s just say, I have not sought Him in vain.
Moroni 7:36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
Chris/Taylor:
Another insightful podcast, thank you both for sharing.
RE: verse 79 “And also this church, to put upon it thy name.” This prayer is directed (“thy”) to one who has many titles. There also many references to Deity. Below is what I found, broken up into those directly addressed, and those referenced:
Directly addressing Deity:
Lord God of Israel (v. 1)
Lord (v. 3, 4, 31, 33, 43, 44, 46-51, 54, 60, 68, 69, 71, 72, 78)
Holy Father (v. 4, 10, 14, 22, 24, 29, 47)
Jehovah (v. 34, 42, 56)
Mighty God of Jacob (v. 68)
God (v. 70)
Lord God Almighty (v. 77)
Indirect references to Deity:
in the name of Jesus Christ (v. 4)
the Son of thy bosom (v. 4)
the Son of Man (v. 5)
a house of God (v. 8, 16)
in the name of the Lord (v. 9, 17, 18, 19)
the Most High (v. 9, 19)
the Messiah (v. 67)
Jehovah (v. 68)
the Lord (v. 75)
God (v. 79)
the Lamb (v. 79)
In the podcast, reference is made to the name change from Church of Christ (1829) to Church of the Latter Day Saints (1834). In response to the pleading from verse 79, it is implied by the prior deletion of “Christ” and the subsequent re-adding of Christ’s name of the church years later (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) that it is Jesus Christ’s name they wanted added back.
QUESTIONS: Since the entire prayer is dedicated to an individual that seems to have the many titles listed above in the first section (“thy”), AND since verse 79 is asking for “…thy name…” to be put upon the Church, I do wonder why Christ’s name was removed then added back, and not derivatives of the names Lord, God, Holy Father, or Jehovah. The name of Jesus Christ was never addressed directly in the prayer. As you contend, they both are one and the same individual, so in my limited view, there seems to be a disconnect.
Also, I wonder why the prayer has INDIRECT references to the names God, Lord, Most High, Jehovah – all of which are used as DIRECT names addressed elsewhere in the prayer. My expectation would be that all indirect references to Deity would be to Jesus, as we are taught to pray to the Father [directly], in the name of Jesus [indirectly].
Thoughts?
Thank you for listing out all the names.
In answer to why “Christ”, I refer to Moses 6:52 “be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men,” Although there are many names used, only the name Jesus Christ is given for our salvation. We are baptized in that name, we pray in the name, and we shall be called by that name (the church of Christ).
Upon reflection, I think it’s significant that the name Jesus Christ isn’t referenced at all in the prayer…almost as though the church were unworthy to ever utter the name they had not valued and lost the right to in 1834. If we can’t even talk with our advocate, I’d say we’re in a bad place.