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Mike Allison joins us a second time for an in-depth discussion of the celestial and terrestrial categories.
JST Gen. 6:59-63
Romans 6:3-9
D&C 88:3-5
JST Genesis 14:27:32
Revelation 19:10
Revelation 12:17
John 1:11-13
D&C 50:28
Jeremiah 16:19
1 Corinthian 15:25-26
D&C 88:95
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Hebrews 12:22-23
D&C 93:22
JST Genesis 9:21-23
1 John 3:2-3
1 Corinthins2:9
1 Peter 3:19
1 Peter 4:6
Moroni 8:22
Great podcast! Question: What do you guys believe about family relationships (husband, wife, procreation of children) in the future after-life? Since you don’t believe we will be Gods, but will be the sons (and daughters) of God, will we continue to pattern our lives after Heavenly Father and Mother as far as creating our own families? I was thinking about the fact that when we are resurrected, all our body parts will be restored in a perfect state. Therefore, it makes sense to me that if our reproductive organs will be restored, would that not indicate that we will continue to have those intimate relations and procreation in our exalted state?
When you consider that the scriptures teach that the Father does not have a body a flesh and bone but is a personage of spirit, and there is no reference to a Mother in heaven, the whole premise for patterning our lives after them is based on an incorrect understanding of the nature of God and nonscriptural teachings. The teachings that we will continue to have sexual intercourse and sire children in the afterlife are offshoots of the polygamy doctrine and not found anywhere in scripture.
I will not claim to have the answers, but I suggest you read Moses 3 carefully. In the beginning, when God created humans, man and woman inhabited the same body. It was only later that they were separated and then the desire for one to cleave unto the other began. What if the eternal state of a husband and wife is to return to the state that Adam and Eve enjoyed in the beginning, before they were separated?
I agree with MD, also see chapters like Math. 22
23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
So what gender are the angels in heaven? I would suggest that one of the mysteries of the gospel is that it reunites all things in one with no more divisions. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
When the angel appears to John the Beloved in Revelations he bows down and starts worshiping him and the angel tells him to stop. How did John not realize it wasn’t Jesus? Probably because the angel looked like Jesus.
I think this passage is also relevant:
Matthew 19:3-12, particularly verses 10-12:
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
It doesn’t seem like procreation is part of the kingdom if heaven based on that saying.
Interestingly in Acts there’s the story of a Eunuch searching Isaiah and who is baptized by Phillip. Also the name YHWH backwards is HW HY which means he she technically it’s spelled wrong because both words have a silent aleph at the end but still I find it interesting.
I think I found where verse 70 refers to it being written that God’s glory is comparable to that of the sun. I had been conducting my searches through LDS resources. I decided to go to google and got some really good candidates, with the best one, in my opinion, being from Habakkuk. Here is the KJV translation:
Habakkuk 3:4 4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
This doesn’t match on the keywords glory and sun in the KJV, but other translations have it thus:
New International Version
His splendor was like the sunrise; …
New Living Translation
His coming is as brilliant as the sunrise. …
English Standard Version
His brightness was like the light; …
Berean Study Bible
His radiance was like the sunlight; …
The definition of “glory” is ” 1. Brightness; luster; splendor. ”
Also, the Hebrew word translated as light, sunlight, and sunrise is, according to Strong’s Concordance, only used in this passage, it’s unique to Habakkuk and found nowhere else in the Bible:
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/kaor_216.htm
There were other passages that came close as well, see this link for them:
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Likened-To-The-Sun
You might find some of those as better matches for what God is referring to in D&C 76:70.
I enjoy listening to all three of you, and I do hope that Mike will continue being a part of this podcast. My comment is concerning “the resurrection of the JUST” in verses 17, 50, and 65 of Section 76, and its relationship to “all those who are JUST and true” in verse 53, and “JUST men made perfect” through Jesus in verse 69.
Jesus (God) is the only one who can make us JUST, and the only one who can make us perfect too. The Bible reveals that “just” actually means “righteous”. I think the only truly “JUST” persons are those who have become “JUSTIFIED” (in two senses: being found “not guilty”, and also being redeemed! saved! born again! made righteous) through Christ. Having experienced a transformational “mighty change” of heart, they are new creatures IN Christ, beginning to grow up in him “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”
The just shall live by faith. Their old self, the “natural man”, is counted as dead; done away; they have laid it down on the altar in offering the sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Then, after being baptized/immersed with fire & holy spirit, becoming spirit-filled, they have become a new creation: thereafter asking him daily for all necessary things in order to serve. Overcoming all obstacles by faith, relying upon Christ alone day by day and not in the “arm of flesh” (upon themself & their own physical or mental abilities, or upon any other human or group of humans), they bring forth good fruit (serve God/others rather than self) to the glory of God & for the building up of his kingdom, Zion.
Jesus is just and good. Righteousness is his name, and is found only in him. He alone is righteous (just). He is the true vine.
Since we one day will be judged according to ALL our works & words & actions & thoughts, it should be obvious that in the end it is impossible for any of us to be justified or to be found “JUST” by those things we have said and done. ALL have sinned, so all of us, every single one, will stand condemned before the judgment bar of God —- unless we can say “I am a sinner, but I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior; He has redeemed me and has purchased me with his blood to be his own possession, blotted out all my sins which i have confessed, so now in him I am “not guilty”! and I am justified because I have trusted in him alone, rather than in any of my own works or deeds. I have totally renounced self. He has made me a new creature, his adopted son/daughter.”
Section 76 verse 53 seems to be saying that the holy spirit (the consciousness of God, i.e. the shared mind & heart of God per Lectures on Faith 5:2) is what’s MAKING the redeemed person “just” and true and faithful, NOT that a person is working to make THEMSELF just and true by their own “agency” and efforts and is rewarded by having the Father shed forth his holy spirit upon them and give them celestial glory. This isn’t the way it works although many LDS members seem to think so. They have it backwards.
“For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (Romans 10:3)
As Mike said, “just” (righteous) actions are the FRUIT. In other words, after faith, repentance, and 3 part baptism we are grafted into the true vine, the very SOURCE of all good things. He is the vine, we are the branches. “As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” (John 15). All glory and credit rightly belongs to him for “every good thing” (Moroni 7, Moroni 10) any human may say or think or do. Everything in existence which is good COMES from God including good gifts bestowed upon humans, also every good (positive) thought or feeling we may have, every good idea or motive, every good work or action.
Section 76 verse 69 to me is saying that humans who have become JUSTIFIED through Jesus (by faith, repentance & the 3 part water-fire-spirit baptism — the last part of which is the continual shedding forth of his holy spirit) will also be eventually SANCTIFIED (made perfect, a saint, pure, whole, and holy) through him. None of this is our own doing, lest any man should boast.
To be redeemed is to be born again, yea, born of God: changed from the carnal and fallen state to a state of righteousness (“justness”). JUSTIFIED means to be MADE JUST, exactly as the word purified means to be made pure, glorified means to be made glorious, petrified means to be turned to stone, liquified means to be turned into a liquid state, etc. In becoming redeemed we are immediately (Alma 34:31) changed/transformed from one state of being to a different one! From a lost and fallen and carnal and “natural” state, which is a state of enmity to God, to a state of righteousness or “justness”. So being JUST is the state of being redeemed.
As MD mentioned, “JUST” in Greek is DIKAIOS [Strong’s #1342], an adjective. This word is translated into English in the NT as “RIGHTEOUS” (41 times), “JUST” (33 times), “RIGHT” (5 times), and “MEET” (2 times). So apparently RIGHTEOUS is its primary meaning. See also Strong’s #1343, the NOUN form of the same word (dikaiosoone in Greek, always translated into English in the NT as RIGHTEOUSNESS — 92 times ). And also Strong’s #1344, the VERB form of the same word (Greek dikaioo, translated as [made] RIGHTEOUS (1 time), FREED (1 time), JUSTIFIED (31 times), and JUSTIFIER, JUSTIFIETH, [to] JUSTIFY (7 times)).
This is very important: as Christians we should all realize that the Lord God alone is righteous and just!! ALL unsaved (unredeemed, not yet spiritually reborn) humans are the very opposite: we are filthy sinners (unjust, unrighteous, prideful). There is none righteous (just), no not one! None that doeth good. (Romans 3:9-31; D&C 82:6). We seek not the Lord, to establish HIS righteousness, but each of us goeth about after our own way, seeking to establish/prove our OWN righteousness and to prop up & “worship” our own self-image (D&C 1:15-16) & to seek rewards for what we do, rather than giving God all the honor & glory & credit.
By our own power & agency we CANNOT make ourselves JUST or righteous no matter how hard we try. BUT, the good news of the gospel, the very crux of it, is that Christ died for us (the just for the unjust), and was raised from the dead in God’s spirit. And Because of his great mercy he offers to cover the truly penitent naked sinner with the robe of his OWN righteousness (“justness”). In being baptized with the 3 part baptism, we have PUT ON Christ (Galatians 3:27). Christ is the robe of righteousness, as well as being the way, the truth, and the life. Allowing him to put his robe upon us is the only way we can become “just” or “righteous”.
“I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness …. but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.” (Philippians 3:8-9)
“I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness… (Isaiah 61:10)
“ O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies!
….O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.” (2 Nephi 4:33-35)
“Wherefore, [at the judgment bar] we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.“ (2 Nephi 9:14)
“That our garments may be pure, that we may be clothed upon with robes of righteousness, with palms in our hands, and crowns of glory upon our heads, and reap eternal joy for all our sufferings.” (D&C 109:76)
I agree. It appears from the scriptures the only good work we can do is to turn to Christ and plead for his mercy. Anything good we do after that point is the fruit of God’s mercy, and he get’s the glory. But if we don’t turn to Christ, no matter how much time and effort we exert, we will always be unprofitable servants, meriting nothing more than death.
Moroni 7:6-7
God has said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offers a gift, or prays unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profits him nothing. For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
I think TBMs choke on this , because they don’t accept that without a spiritual rebirth, their works are futile. They expect to say “Lord, didn’t we do all these good works in your name?” and have the Lord respond, “it’s alright, you had mostly good intentions.”
These verses only make sense if you believe that we are fallen, unprofitable servants that can do nothing for ourselves, and only when Christ changes us do we have a chance to do good. We’re back to a binary state: a follower of Christ or not a follower of Christ:
Moroni 7:11-13
A bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil. Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fights against him continually, and invites and entices to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God invites and entices to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which invites and entices to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
Moroni 7:24
All things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.
Yes! Hopefully more & more people will be finding their way to Christ and his pure & simple gospel. Thank you for teaching the scriptures and pointing out where they differ from the traditions of men.
I would like to thank you gentlemen for teaching the meat of the gospel and not the milk. I appreciate all the hard work you do. Truly you are watchmen.