Common consent. How Joseph defused Oliver’s protests. And after being told while on the way to purchase wine that it doesn’t matter what you drink for the sacrament, Joseph proceeds to procure some wine for the sacrament.
D&C 20:35, 41, 69, 80
JST Matthew 17
JST Luke 9:4
We belly-laugh at Addison Everett, but we convict Joseph as the author of polygamy with similarly shoddy testimonies by polygamists desperate to pin it on Joseph.
While I agree that Brigham’s theology and court case against the RLDS Church required him to “find” as much evidence as possible and led to some questionable testimonies, there were non-polygamists who didn’t follow Brigham yet still denounced Joseph for polygamy; Oliver Cowdery, William Marks, and William Law being three key accusers. We’ve covered this in past episodes, but the RLDS Church for the first 20 years of its existence detested Brigham and polygamy yet acknowledged that Joseph taught and practiced polygamy. It wasn’t until Joseph Smith III became the president and, in Brigham-like manner, decided to use his position to change the narrative and “find” evidence to support his position that Joseph was innocent of all charges. I’ve never heard a cogent argument for why the anti-polygamy RLDS church would “support Brigham” for twenty years by accusing Joseph of polygamy while fighting Brigham and polygamy during those same twenty years.
MD and Searcher, Thank you so much for an exceptionally enlightening episode! It’s interesting that, in Lehi’s dream, the man in the white robe, asked Lehi to follow him. AKA “Follow the Prophet.” A true servant of God points towards God.
I have heard that the enemies of the early saints were poisoning the saints wine. Therefore, that was the reasoning behind the advice to utilize water or wine of their own making for the sacrament.
Thanks for all you do to shine a light on the truth!
Searcher, where and when can we purchase your book??’ ;0)
Some random questions that I had as I was listening this week:
Considering the discussion about the sacrament and baptism, do you have any information about whether children were being baptized in the earliest days of the restoration? It doesn’t seem likely that they were serving wine to small children even in the days before prohibition. More likely that sacrament meeting was an occasion for adult fellowship.
If the southern kingdom consisted of Judah and Benjamin, what happened to the tribe of Simeon whose land was encircled by the tribe of Judah? The numbering of tribes is hard to keep track of because there should be 12, but Levi wasn’t counted and Ephraim and Manasseh each counted as their own. When David became king, he was the king of Judah for 7 years before the kingdom was united because the other tribes followed Saul’s son, who was from Benjamin. Then, after Solomon’s death, Jeroboam is told to rend a garment in 12 pieces, for God would give 10 tribes to Jeroboam and leave one for the sake of David. That is only 11, so it seems that Levi counts as its own which belongs to God. In which case it seems that one tribe has been lost. By the time of the Assyrian conquest, only Jerusalem itself was not conquered, and there seemed to be a lot of intermarriage between Israelites and other people, including Egyptians, Moabites, and the other surrounding people. It seems to me that their lineage was just as mixed up as it is today. Maybe that is why Lehi was surprised to learn that he was a descendant of Joseph when he gained access to the brass plates.
Great question about Simeon. I had to do some research on that.
2 Chronicles 11:13-17 and 15:19 discuss how faithful believers from the northern kingdom relocated to the southern kingdom after the death of Solomon to avoid the false religion being instituted up north. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was why Lehi, from Manasseh, would find himself born and raised in Jerusalem.
There is also evidence that suggests at least a portion of the tribe of Simeon relocated from their original lands. 2 Chronicles 34:6, after the Assyrian conquest, suggests the lands of Simeon now are north of Ephraim and Manasseh and south of Naphtali.
You can read more about this here: https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/14/14-4/14-4-pp221-226_JETS.pdf
Great podcast (as always)! But I have a little heart burn over a verse that you did not address when focusing on the subject of the use of wine. I fully agree with everything you guys discussed about the use of wine in the sacrament, but I am struggling with use of it outside of the sacrament. You discussed some of the early instructions from the Lord where he didn’t really put any restrictions on the use of wine outside of the sacrament (which I fully agree with), but you didn’t address the restriction he placed upon the saints in the W of W.
It states: “Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, in consequence of evils & designs, which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom, by revelation: That inasmuch as any man drinketh WINE or strong drink among you, BEHOLD IT IS NOT GOOD, NEITHER MEET IN THE SIGHT OF YOUR FATHER, ONLY IN ASSEMBLING YOURSELVES TOGETHER, TO OFFER UP YOUR SACRAMENTS BEFORE HIM: and behold, this should be wine, yea pure wine, of the grape of the vine of your own make.”
I am fully aware the W of W was never given as a commandment, but at the same time, it is, at least, the “good advise” of the Lord…and the last word we have on the matter. So…shouldn’t we try to take it to heart?
And by questioning this I’m not trying to imply that those who are out there drinking wine are “sinners”. I’m just saying that these words should not be ignored…and be considered in our personal choices…right?
I recommend you listen to episode 025 where we went into this in detail. In the episode, we review how Joseph consistently interpreted and implemented this after he received the revelation, up through the day of his death. Joseph’s understanding of what the Lord was advising us to do was dramatically different than how it was interpreted and implemented in the 20th century by those who did not receive the revelation nor claim divine guidance on this topic, but wanted to impose their interpretation on the members by constraint.