4 comments on “Iron Rod 093 – 3 Nephi 15-18”

1. Ranae Sep 13, 2020

   As you were talking about “my church, among my people who do repent and are baptized in my name” I wonder whether or not you think any baptism done with faith in Christ and with a desire to repent and serve him qualifies at this time in history. Or do you think only baptisms done through the priesthood line traced back to Joseph and Oliver count?

   My second observation relates to the discussion about the house of Israel and the promises made to them in the last days. The LDS church and its members spend considerable time and resources in tracing family lines. We also take stock in the declaration of lineage named in Patriarchal blessings. How relevant do you think these are for identifying the various Jews and Gentiles in trying to sort out which promises apply to any of us individually at this time, especially when we know the House of Israel has been scattered among all nations? After all, John the Baptist said, “God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.” (Luke 3:8) Galatians 3:6-7 tells us “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”

   D&C 29 tells us Jesus Christ “will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, as many as will hearken to [his] voice and humble themselves before [him], and call upon [him] in mighty prayer.” (v. 2) The elders who are sent to gather the elect are told how to recognize them, “for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts.” (D&C 29:7) “The people of the Lord are they who wait for him; for they still wait for the coming of the Messiah” (2 Ne. 6:13) This last description could apply to Jews, native Americans, and also Christians who have an eye of faith that God has promised to return and that he will keep him promise. Some people have retained a collective memory of a coming Messiah, others need to be taught about it. “Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after I will send for many hunters, and thy shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and out of the holes of the rocks.” (Jer. 16:16) It seems to me that by this point in world history, that the only sure way to identify the children on the promise would be their response to the message and whether they look forward in faith to the coming of their Savior once they are told of his return.

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   • Paul Sep 14, 2020

     I have often wondered about how accurate patriarchal blessings are, and I think it really depends upon the patriarch. I have spent probably more time than was needed researching my own family history and seeing if I could figure out what tribes ended up where, and how I descend from them, and I really think God didn’t lie when he said the tribes would be scattered among all nations. But also it ultimately doesn’t matter that much because anyone who believes is the seed of Abraham and a joint heir with Christ. However, some points that I think everyone here will find interesting. Firstly, I highly recommend everyone listen to Michael Heiser’s podcast from Saturday, interestingly it is about John 10 and how it borrows from Ezekiel and other parts of the old testament: https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/podcast/naked-bible341-the-book-of-ezekiel-in-john-10/

     He even mentions at the end how Mormons have missed the mark over the “other sheep” passage which I found entertaining. I think that he’s right but also wrong on that point, and I also think it’s not a coincidence that he did this episode basically simultaneously to ya’ll’s podcast.

     Another point I learned from an earlier Heiser podcast is about the fullness of the gentiles.
     Romans 11:25-6 says:
     blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved.
     In Greek the phrase fullness of the gentiles is τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν – to playroma ton ethnon

     In Gen. 48:19 Jacob blesses Joseph and says, “his seed shall become a multitude of nations.” In Hebrew multitude of nations is: מְלֹֽא־ הַגּוֹיִֽם – mela ha-goyim and in the LXX it says πληθος εθνων – playthos ethnon which both literally fullness of the nations or gentiles.
     πλήρωμα comes from πληρόω which comes from πλήρης which comes from πλήθω the same root as πληθος

     So even those the two words in the greek for fullness are slightly different in the verses they both come from the same root and mean the same thing. Thus, the fullness of the gentiles is the fulfilling of the promises made to Joseph that his seed would become a multitude of nations, and be saved in the latter days. So Michael Heiser is right to see a fulfillment of this on Pentacost when scattered Israelites were gathered from all the known nations and accepted Jesus as Messiah. But this was also fulfilled when the first Mormon missionaries began to gather in more scattered Israelites from the Brittish Isles, and from Scandinavia, and the Isles of the sea. And this preparatory gathering has continued but it’s literal fulfillment will happen when the records come forth and the high priesthood is restored, which must happen soon. Any baptisms or gatherings are only preparatory, and can be good just like John’s baptism was, but ultimately we still need that fullness of the priesthood to break off the flaxen cords which weigh us down in sin and blindness. Only the high priesthood has the power to establish Zion, and to perform the works of Jesus.

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     • MD Sep 14, 2020

       My experience with patriarchal blessings is hit and miss. My blessing was given by a man that had been in our ward and known me for 10 years. He said some things that seemed oddly worded but innocuous for almost two decades. Then changes in my life suddenly made the strange wording truly prophetic, in a way I had never anticipated but in my new circumstances immediately recognizable. Then he told me to “listen to the counsel of the brethren of the church. They will not mislead you.” So, hit and miss. My daughters received theirs from a total stranger who felt it necessary to call them to repentance for not inviting their estranged mother to the blessing, going so far as to tell them they were responsible for preventing their mother from returning to the Church. Once the crying stopped, he proceeded to give a bland, generic, stay on the Good Ship Zion blessing. Both abandoned ship shortly thereafter.

       I suspect the efficacy of a patriarchal blessing today is almost 100% based on the faith and love of Christ and fellow man the patriarch has, and almost 0% on the “authority” he has received. And since you can’t pick your patriarch, odds aren’t good.

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   • MD Sep 14, 2020

     Regarding the state of baptism. D&C 124:32 warns that we will be rejected as a church if we didn’t obey God’s command to build a house in Nauvoo “for there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.” The fullness of the priesthood that allows for giving the Gift of the Holy Ghost appears to have already been taken away by 1841. Any remaining special status seems to have been lost by 1844 when the church was visibly rejected. So I don’t think anyone can be baptized “in the name of Jesus” and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost at this time. We need to wait for authorized servants to return. We’re basically in the same position as the entire world was in in 1829.

     But there’s hope. Being baptized unto repentance has a much lower criteria, as it is a witness that we are willing to follow Jesus. Sidney Rigdon was baptizing people unto repentance before he heard of Joseph Smith, and the Lord informs him in D&C 35:4-5 that his baptisms (which the LDS Church would consider “unauthorized and invalid” today) were just as acceptable as John the Baptist’s, even though Sidney had not had the Aaronic priesthood conferred on him. So it doesn’t have to be someone who has a line of authority running back to Joseph or Oliver…Sidney didn’t.

     Unfortunately, we’ve been indoctrinated to believe that baptism locks you into a specific institution of men, and if you are baptized by anyone outside of that institution you are sinning against God. If I were to decide to recommit myself to Christ by being baptized as a public witness of my desire to follow Jesus, and I find a Christian who offers to baptize me as a witness with no institutional strings attached, would God be mad at me for getting baptized? I don’t think so. God didn’t condemn Sidney’s baptizing, but used it as a springboard for the fuller baptism with power and authority. My personal opinion is that a preparatory baptism, even without authority, when performed with faith to witness to God a desire to repent, will not be punished. And if no one is able to give the fuller baptism that brings the fruits of the spirit at this time, as long as it isn’t pretending to offer more than what it really is, a faithful preparatory baptism seems better than nothing.

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