Dissenting Nephites, Gadianton robbers, and righteous Lamanites.
3 Nephi 12:34
1 Nephi 20:1-2
Dissenting Nephites, Gadianton robbers, and righteous Lamanites.
3 Nephi 12:34
1 Nephi 20:1-2
Oh come on Searcher you need to be balanced in your accusations of mysterious deaths 😉 The Bush family, especially Bush sr. also have a lot of interesting deaths around them. If you want to go down the rabbit hole and learn more about our american secret combinations, this is a good overview: https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:Fifty_Years_of_the_Deep_State
Also I’m not sure if you knew but the penalties in the endowment, until the 1920’s, had more graphic descriptions than you had in the pre 1990 endowment.
There was also an oath of vengeance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance
As to the ancient date of the endowment, it’s true masonry can only be traced back to 1390 or so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_manuscripts#Halliwell_Manuscript,_or_Regius_Poem
However, it’s possible that it contains older elements. For example, look at figure 7 on facsimile 2: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Fac2TimesandSeasons.jpg
The hand signs look very similar to masonry/enowment signs. The book of Abraham tells us that Pharaonic religion was a rip off of the gospel and true priesthood. Over time this was then mixed in with secret combinations from Cain. So I could see masonry/the endowment actually being a watered down form of the original secret combination with Cain. Master Mahan sounds a lot like master mason.
Very very important to understand that the story of the Lamanites in Helaman 5 is what Jesus was referring to in 3 Nephi 9:20 and that their baptism of fire came through the sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit on true submission to the Lord Jesus…. The phrase “And they knew it not” is misappropriated by the LDS to mean that this change upon the Lamanites was a slow and imperceptible process…. Reading the text shows the exact opposite- this “mighty change of heart” was immediate and life changing and magnanimous, they just simply did not know YET exactly what it was that had happened to them… I strongly believe that our misunderstanding of this critical aspect of the doctrine of Christ and his new and everlasting covenant is a big reason why we are in the condemned and rejected stare we find ourselves today.
So much good content this week. Thanks for the discussion.
In the context of matching the events which are currently taking place under the Trump presidency to so many events in the book of Alma, it is interesting to start the book of Helaman, which begins with a change in political leadership and might be a foreshadowing of things yet to come. What came to mind when reading about all the assassinations in the first couple chapters of Helaman was the work of James Prout (lastdaystimeline.com) who is attempting to create a timeline of the prophetic events of the last days. He believes the eagle prophecy from the book of Esdras relates to approximately the last century of the US government, with the eagle feathers representing specific presidents.
I won’t make any statements about his theories other than to mention he believes the second wing with 6 feathers is a series of US Presidents who try to act contrary to the hidden “powers behind the throne” and are cut off before their terms of service would come to a natural end, either through impeachment or assassination. He calculates the first to be Trump, and three after him to be eliminated faster, even possibly to the extent of actually needing to use the line of succession to fill the office. He thinks the last two feathers will seek to make peace with the eagle heads before the heads start ruling directly and killing each other off.
As I said, my point in bringing up the topic is not to advocate anything he teaches, but rather to see if anyone else (who might have more experience with the eagle prophecy than I do) would care to speculate whether the prophecy itself might be reflected in the political upheaval and assassinations we see in the book of Helaman leading up to the dissolution of the Nephite society, and thus be an indication of the road our country seems to be headed down as we await the future return of Jesus Christ.
If the book of Helaman is actually a prophetic pattern that mirrors the course our country is on currently, it may also give some foreshadowing to what we can expect as the time of the Gentiles comes to an end and the House of Israel prepares to see the fulfillment of ancient promises. I agree with the moderators that the decay of society as evidenced by secret murders and combinations is evidence that decay is widespread and we are in serious need of repentance for our survival.
Thanks to the link to James Prout, I’ll take a look at his work. I’m familiar with Michael Rush’s work on the Esdras Eagle prophecy. I’m not sure who started it, but he mentions several others have written books on his interpretation of that prophecy. Michael Rush’s book is available free online and it’s an interesting read.
I went to the Apocrypha and read it myself. He makes a few mistakes, that I can identify.
2nd Esdras 11:37 And I beheld, and lo, as it were a roaring lion chased out of the wood: and I saw that he sent out a man’s voice unto the eagle, and said,
To me, it’s significant that the lion sends out a man’s voice. The author equates the lion to the lost 10 tribes, a group. I think this lion with a man’s voice is more likely the returned Joseph Smith.
I think the vision’s interpretation also supports this view:
2nd Esdras 12:31 And the lion, whom thou sawest rising up out of the wood, and roaring, and speaking to the eagle, and rebuking her for her unrighteousness with all the words which thou hast heard;
32 This is the anointed, which the Highest hath kept for them and for their wickedness unto the end: he shall reprove them, and shall upbraid them with their cruelty.
33 For he shall set them before him alive in judgment, and shall rebuke them, and correct them.
34 For the rest of my people shall he deliver with mercy, those that have been pressed upon my borders, and he shall make them joyful until the coming of the day of judgment, whereof I have spoken unto thee from the the beginning.
Joseph was commanded to send a proclamation to the president-elect and all nations of the earth.
I think this also speaks to Joseph redeeming Zion and setting it up for God’s people. Interestingly, with this mindset, I continued reading 2nd Esdras and the next vision he has seems to be exactly about Joseph Smith returning from the dead:
2nd Esdras 13:25 This is the meaning of the vision: Whereas thou sawest a man coming up from the midst of the sea:
26 The same is he whom God the Highest hath kept a great season, which by his own self shall deliver his creature: and he shall order them that are left behind.
27 And whereas thou sawest, that out of his mouth there came as a blast of wind, and fire, and storm;
28 And that he held neither sword, nor any instrument of war, but that the rushing in of him destroyed the whole multitude that came to subdue him; this is the interpretation:
29 Behold, the days come, when the most High will begin to deliver them that are upon the earth.
30 And he shall come to the astonishment of them that dwell on the earth.
His coming leads to astonishment, like a marvelous work and a wonder. And this time he goes forth with great power from God.
If the Eagle prophecy is about this nation, I’m not sure which feather Trump is. However, it doesn’t end well for any of the Eagle’s feathers or heads.
There are a lot of James Prout’s theories I disagree with, however, I guess it is something that has been circulating through mainstream LDs circles extensively. (My random sample being my brother in MN told me about it, and my son was sent a link from a friend whose parents in Mexico referred the info.)
Here is my understanding of what he is teaching related to the wings and US Presidents. (I don’t know how different translations are of Esdras, so I will go off of what my copy says.) The eagle has 12 feather-covered wings (he says it probably has two wings and the first wing he talks about has 12 feathers) Of the initial wings/feathers, each reigns in its own time and the heads are reserved for last. The second wing/feather reigns a long time and then a voice says “Listen, you who have ruled the earth so long, I make this proclamation to you before you begin to disappear; No one after you will rule as long as you have ruled, or even half as long!” Prout says this represents FDR because he was elected for 4 terms, and no other President has or will serve more than 2 terms, so we start counting the first wing/feather with Herbert Hoover.
In addition to the original 12 wings/feathers, eight more were added. Two were among the original 12, and 6 others after the 12 had each had their turn. Of the additional wings, they too raised themselves up to be emperor, some who succeeded but immediately disappeared, and some that did not remain emperor. (Prout says among the 14 Presidents from Hoover to Obama, two left office early – JFK and Nixon. JFK disappeared (assassinated) and Nixon did not remain emperor (resigned)) Another possibility is that the additional wings/feathers are those who are not part of the NWO aligned presidents, so they are working contrary to the designs of the eagle heads. Some translations call these additional wings “contrary”.
After these had all run their course, there was nothing left on the eagle except the heads and six little (contrary) wings/feathers. Of those six, two separated from the bunch and stayed under the head on the other side. The remaining 4 wings planned to raise themselves up as emperors, but the first “immediately disappeared”, the second “disappeared more quickly than the first”. The last two planned to reign, but while they were planning it, the head resting in the middle awoke and ate up the wings that were planning to reign. Then the head made itself master of the whole earth.
Now, Prout originally was teaching this just after the 2016 election. He thought Trump would be removed or assassinated, the VP would follow as pres and not remain as long, and the two following would never even make it to office (maybe an assassination that took out the Presidential line of succession). Whether he is partly right or wrong all together, I don’t know. What caught my attention was the idea of a series of “short” wings/feathers after Obama, who were not in alignment with the agenda of the heads and were removed from power. (I personally think Nixon was part of the system and Reagan was removed as emperor after being shot even though he was still in office, but the numbers come out the same with either scenario.) How this fits into the book of Helaman is the idea of violent removal of elected leaders. The book of Alma seems to be tracking closely with events of the current political era. Alma starts with a disputed election, but the government continues relatively calmly despite dissenters and lots of war for 40 years (Alma, Nephihah, Pahoran). However, once Pahoran dies at the end of the book, there is not only a heated election for next leader, but once it seems to be settled, Pahoran Jr. is killed the same year, his brother Pacumeni is also killed the same year, and Coriantumr seizes control until he is also killed within a short time.
Now the people go back to the descendants of Alma for stable leadership. Helaman is installed as chief judge in the 42nd year, he is replaced by Nephi in year 53 until Cezoram takes over in year 62 and the assassination cycle is back in full swing again. Within 4 years, Cezoram is killed and his unnamed son is also killed by an unknown hand the same year he is put in office. We don’t really know what happened next except that in year 69 Seezoram is killed by his brother Seantum who wants to rule and is outed by Nephi. We have no more record of who is ruling until Lachoneus saves the people about 36 years later, 16 years after the sign of Christ’s birth. So, looking at patterns to be on the lookout for, we have at least 6 judges (including the usurper Coriantumr who were killed one after the other, with the exception of the 20 year gap when Helaman and Nephi were in position.
I believe the record of assassinations was intentional, because the book stops recording almost everything about who is in political control after this point. There is no line of succession that had been so carefully documented for us from the King Mosiah, King Benjamin, King Mosiah, and then to judges beginning with Alma. It is just one of those things that wasn’t important enough to record on the plates for us. It also bring up the idea that if the people awake enough to their awful condition we might also be able to halt a down slide into anarchy by turning to God, at least temporarily. The Nephites had a 20 year pause, I hope we can get something like that as well.
I prefer reading over videos, and his videos were hard to watch so I only got through a bit of them. It looks like he has followed off of Michael Rush’s work – he also published his book right around 2016 with similar expectations about Trump. I think they are on to something, however, Prout interprets the feathers as aligned with or against the eagle’s heads. Rush believes the contrary/small feathers simply indicate they do not fulfill their entire designated time in office.
None of them are able to line this up with the true narrative of the LDS foundation and failure in the 1830s or the return of the servants. Once you factor in the correct information you can weed out some of the Mormonism put into these theories.
The vision Esdras had is complimentary to the vision Daniel had. It elaborates more fully on the final beast (kingdom). One of the mysteries to them is the two leaders who are set aside until after the three eagle heads have warred with each other. After they pass, then these two leaders rule over two separate, yet smaller kingdoms than the original eagle (kingdom).
I interpret this as during the chaos when the eagle’s leaders are removed from their normal turn in office, Zion is redeemed. This occupies a significant amount of the land that was previously under the eagle’s control. I believe there will be a small east coast kingdom and a western kingdom on either side of Zion. Reading further in Esdras and his vision of the man from the sea we see how the entire world goes to war with Zion but is defeated. I believe those two smaller kingdoms are part of that effort.
I know there are parallels to our times and the Book of Mormon account leading up to the birth of the Savior. The parallel I see is that the return of the servants and the establishment of Zion is the equivalent to the birth of Jesus. The second coming and defeat of those fighting against Zion is equivalent to the crucifixion of Jesus and all of the destruction that occurred.
I don’t know that we will have the same period of time between the two events. I think there are many reasons to believe that the times will be shortened and my guess is 15-20 years between the redemption of Zion and the second coming of Christ. But that’s mostly a guess.
Just to clarify, Prout does think the size of feathers means their time in office is cut short. Part of the reason he says they are 12 feathers on 2 wings is because he thinks the 14 feathers on one side are aligned with the heads, and when we move to the other wing it represents a change in direction (against the heads). Unfortunately, that view requires the actual prophecy to be changed. I am the one speculating that they are wings and that the word contrary is correct, meaning they are working contrary to the eagle’s purposes, which is why they disappear so quickly. However, I haven’t really spent much time on this, so I might be missing a lot of details that would inform my opinion if I were more familiar with it.
Rush’s theory is mostly about the return of the lost 10 tribes. If you have a chance to read it, it’s kind of far out there – but it is 2020 so who knows? I agree Prout is focusing on the feathers as being aligned or opposed to the eagle. I don’t know if that is what is meant by the vision, but I can see where he get it.
I just don’t think the last 6 are actually opposed to the eagle. If you are familiar with the Uniparty, then there hasn’t been a real difference whether the feather claims to be on the “right” or “left”. A lot of people see President Trump as the first one not aligned with the uniparty, thus the effort by both official parties to remove him from office. It is significant that the ENTIRE US Senate has refused to recess throughout his presidency. All it takes is one Senator to disagree and when they leave town, the Senate is in recess. But there’s not a single one of them willing to do this to allow President Trump to make recess appointments.
Those who view Trump as a continuation of the Uniparty see how he has staffed his administration and decisions the executive branch has taken that are in alignment with the Uniparty. In general, I can believe that Trump is more for the working poor in this country than we’ve seen in that office. But I don’t see that making much of a difference in the long run. Among those other 5 feathers are the two leaders of the two kingdoms left behind after the nation has been torn apart. They are as opposed to Zion as the rest of the world. So with him being in that same crowd, it wouldn’t make him that much different.
For me, the key to applying the vision is to watch for the feather to be removed from office. His replacement will last less time in office than he did, but will serve for some time. The next 2 who are set up will never actually hold office. The way I see the scenario taking place:
Pence replaces him but is also removed early (note, he would have likely had time to name a new VP though it’s possible he is removed before doing so)
If Pence has a VP, neither the VP nor the Speaker of the House take office
If Pence hasn’t a VP then neither the Speaker of the House or the next in line take office
One twist, there could already have been an election and someone other than Pence is the winner.
Also, for the commandment in D&C 124 to issue a proclamation to the president-elect, then this should all be happening right around an election. If all of these interpretations are correct, it would either be the 2020 or 2024 election.