In these chapters we learn about the people of Alma after they flee from king Noah, and how they are miraculously delivered from bondage after putting their trust in the Lord. After arriving in Zarahemla, Mosiah the seer puts Alma the former apostate in charge of the church and the people prosper.
2 Nephi 10:11-14
2 Corinthians 3
2 Nephi 4:34
2 Nephi 28:31
2 Nephi 9:28
D&C 101:63, 75
3 Nephi 19:35
2 Nephi 32:7
A-Freakin’-Men! And so I laughed. It’s funny how context gives you the ability to see the situation as it is. That comment made me laugh. Great podcast. My thoughts:
1. Something you said about Brigham as King in this podcast made me think of my own family history and it’s curses. I am a direct descendant from two of the men (key players, not including Brigham himself, i also descend directly from brigham’s brother) involved in the mountain meadow massacre. Our family record’s and journal entries very directly say that they “swore oaths to Brigham” to do what they did…..obviously it’s been hard for me to accept current narrative where all the leadership had clean hands. Also, it’s been interesting to process how the Saints of those days actually viewed those murders. it took years before the local community “shunned” my own family who was involved in the event. They were finally excommunicated, and then repaptized and pardoned by brigham (which took years after the mountain meadow massacre to do) and then when their record was FINALLY clean, thanks to brighams government and spiritual pardon, they were put over establishing townships in southern utah (right back into leadership). I was at the Washington Utah Pioneer Museum in southern utah last summer, and I saw a ginormous Bronze statue of John D. Lee tucked back into the corner. HA! the fact that that statue exists tells me that at least for some time, John D. Lee was celebrated as a martyr YOU KNOW, until real people discovered what he and the boys actually did, and then his giant bronze statue was tucked in the corner like the scapegoat he was (but the statue still exists, and I have a photo) And of course John D. Lee believed Brigham used him as a scapegoat in his final words. The truth is so different from the current narrative.
When you brought up the “language” that they taught one another in the BOM, it reminded me of the way the Hebrew language is written as a code in scripture. The symbol of “40 days in the wilderness” and three days of blindness (or eyes shut). Also ancient hebrew pictographs (before they were converted to letters) show, for example, the actual “hebrew letter that looks like a cross” which means “mark or sign” written in to literary symbols in the scriptures. For the passover/exodus, the way the hebrews marked the posts with blood, they would have been making the symbol of the cross, and everyone who walked through would have had Blood poured on the foreheads just by entering into the house (it was the blood of the first born slaughter that spared them from slaughter). the imagery of the story actually matches the “word” in the flesh. So the actual hebrew pictograph letters actually become physical manifestations in the stories. we then can actually “see” the way scripture is written becoming life, and that becomes fascinating to me.
As far as prayer from the heart goes. I am reminded of the story of Lazarus, where jesus only “prays out loud” so that others who are “blind” can hear him (even though he knows that the father always hears him). I wrote about it in a recent article on my website, but it confirms to me these BOM scriptural passages about prayer coming from the heart and intentions, not so much the words. I write about it in the context that Jesus is surrounded by a bunch of “blind” followers at Lazarus’s raising, who are confessing him, but not “seeing” him. This prayer he speaks they “hear” but only because they hear his words, HE knowing that God always hears His heart (brings up parallels to third Nephi).
Great podcast as always.
I wanted to comment on the Priesthood as you mentioned Alma having it apparently from God directly.
39 It is the duty of the Twelve, in all large branches of the church, to ordain evangelical ministers, as they shall be designated unto them by revelation—
40 The order of this priesthood was confirmed to be handed down from father to son, and rightly belongs to the literal descendants of the chosen seed, to whom the promises were made.
41 This order was instituted in the days of Adam, and came down by lineage in the following manner:
The patriarchal lineage is then listed showing this is a patriarchal priesthood. Also notice the apostate 12 were given the authority to ordain people to this priesthood, which shows God knew they would be the ones who ended up in charge after the people rejected the fullness of the gospel/priesthood.
See also D&C 84:6-16 which mentions this patriarchal priesthood which is received through a line of fathers back to Adam.
Section 84 then states that:
17 Which priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years.
18 And the Lord confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations, which priesthood also continueth and abideth forever with the priesthood which is after the holiest order of God.
The priesthood mentioned in verse 17 must be different than the priesthood that is lineal, because the lineal patriarchal priesthood starts with Adam, whereas the High Priesthood is without beginning or end. Finally, the third and lowest preparatory priesthood is mentioned. Also notice verses 22-25 mention the fact that you must have the highest priesthood to see God and live, which Moses tried to get the people to do just like Joseph did.
Abraham 1 says Abraham became a high priest of this patriarchal order:
I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.
3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.
4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.
This is a key passage, because it helps clear up the ambiguity which God intentionally left concerning the priesthood. Just as there is a high priest in the Aaronic order, and a High Priest after the order of the Son of God, there is also a high priest of the patriarchal order which is a preparatory office. Just like Oliver told the 12 they had to see God to be true apostles, anyone who wants to become a true high priest must do the same think, otherwise you are still a preparatory patriarchal evangelical high priest.
Chapter 2 says more about the patriarchal priesthood:
I will bless thee above measure, and make thy name great among all nations, and thou shalt be a blessing unto thy seed after thee, that in their hands they shall bear this ministry and Priesthood unto all nations;
10 And I will bless them through thy name; for as many as receive this Gospel shall be called after thy name, and shall be accounted thy seed, and shall rise up and bless thee, as their father;
11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.
Notice that the aaronic priesthood could only bring cursings, but this priesthood has blessings and cursings, whereas the true high priesthood only brings salvation/blessings. Notice also that there are three priesthoods like there are three kingdoms. I don’t believe this is coincidence.
Some more references of interest from what Joseph taught:
On one last note, perhaps because America was given to the tribe of Joseph the kings among the Nephites were of that lineage? But that’s an interesting thought about the kingmen.
Thanks for the great episode guys. I feel that our waiting will be coming to an end quite soon, we just have to be ready.
Alma chapter five verse three seems to indicate that it is possible for a man to pass the priesthood on to another man please help me understand what is meant here. Am I to understand that when it says “by the holy order of God” that God ordained the person? Thank you.
I gained some good insights from the first two comments and the answer to my question is probably in Paul’s comment if I just process it a little longer. I was interested greatly in the first comment as well. I have a cousin who has become fixated on two books for the past three months. The books are Under the Banner of Heaven and The Massacre at Mountain Meadows. So the name of John D. Lee has come up many times lately in our weekly two or three hours on the phone. My cousin feels that Under the Banner of Heaven is more accurate in regard to the Mountain Meadows massacre while the other seeks to give “clean hands,” as you put it, to Brother Brigham.