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The words of a book that comes forth in the last days, the learned that say that they can’t read it, a people that draws near unto the Lord with their mouth but their hearts are far from him, churches that preach vain and foolish doctrines while building fine sanctuaries, and people who put their trust in man are just some of the topics in these two chapters.
3 Nephi 16:7, 10
1 Nephi 15:13, 18-19
2 Nephi 12:1
Isaiah 29:10
2 Nephi 1:13
D&C 124:45-48
Micah 3:5-7
Amos 8:11-12
Ether 4:6
2 Nephi 3:11
Luke 6:46
D&C 84:57-58
Matthew 7:22
Modish 15:13
Mark 4:12
Isaiah 42:19-23
D&C 10:67
D&C 132:26
D&C 88:127-
Alma 33:2
1 Nephi 22:22
D&C 1:19
Led astray? Apostasy?
Nah, that can’t happen here…
We are his elected and holy children; we shall not go astray and be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down. How grateful we should all be to be a chosen and a holy people. Amen.
Anthony, great satire.
I like the big one that is the LDS church that are led astray by false doctrines like 1) the Christus Idol and pictures of Christ being placed in their homes violating the most basic commandments of idol warship, 2) the worship of money, power, and church leaders as gods, 3) a belief that they have priesthood power that is clearly impotent, 4) an apparent rejection of other works outside the LDS church such as Wyatt’s work on the Red Sea crossing and Noah’s Ark, etc. showing an arrogance against other works of God.
The logic is so basic that since everyone sins then members of churches sin and churches full of sinners go astray. Except of course if the leaders are perfect money worshiping millionaires and billionaires. The doctrine is so false, that someone can not be led astray, and if that were true then Joseph Smith was not led astray nor was Young and the others who ended upon fighting among themselves. We are all led astray from time to time and especially those following church leaders.
I was listening to one of the Naked Bible podcasts on the book of Ezekiel and it covered the idolatry of the Israelites prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD’s house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshiped the sun toward the east.
They are in the temple and are worshiping the sun. They think they are doing the right thing, but they are committing abominations before the Lord. From the podcast commentary:
“And the second takeaway I think is this note about improper worship. They thought, at least some of them… If you’re dancing around the Asherah pole it’s kind of hard to justify that, even if you say, “That’s Yahweh’s wife! He wouldn’t be mad.” Well, yeah, he would because it’s not him. He doesn’t share his glory with another. So that’s a little hard, but you can look at them bowing down to the sun thinking they’re worshiping Yahweh. Again, you must ignore other commands about creating graven images, worshiping the creature over the creator, all that sort of stuff. It was idolatry. It’s what it is. Even though it was well-intentioned. We’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it was well-intentioned. Even though that could be the case, God was still angry about it. He didn’t accept it. It was, by definition, unacceptable.”
It struck me how applicable Ezekiel’s words are to the House of Israel today. They go to temples they built up to God and practice abominations before him totally unwittingly. Because of ignorance, they think they are worshiping the way God wants them to, but it’s totally unacceptable to God.
I thought it was interesting to compare 2 Nephi 27:24-25 with Joseph Smith History verse 19 which says, speaking to Joseph, “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.” The account goes on to say that Joseph was also told many other things which he cannot write at this time. It seems like a pretty close match to me to identify the person who would read the words that would be delivered unto him.
MD and Searcher, I have repeatedly heard you say that the prophecy concerning those who fight against Zion cannot be happening at this time because there is no identifiable city of Zion, if I understand you correctly.
I disagree with this because in Moses 7:18-19, it clearly tells us that the “Lord called his people Zion because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them. And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even ZION.”
The clear reading of this passage is that what the Lord identified as Zion was not a city, it was his people who had become of one heart and mind, with no poor among them. It was the people who called the city Zion. I won’t go into politics here, other than to say that there are people who are working to divide people by race, class, religion, gender, and any other way they can think of. Are these groups not fighting against Zion? I don’t see much distinction between fighting against the establishment of something before it becomes a force to be reckoned with and going against it with actual weapons of war as far as the scriptures are concerned. I just think there is far more happening in plain sight than might be supposed.
Also, in reference to the religions that are built up, I do not believe that these refer only to identifiable religious organizations. They just as easily can refer to educational philosophies, political parties, social causes, etc.
I don’t think we’ve specifically said a city of Zion doesn’t exist, but I think our gist has been Zion doesn’t exist, and you can’t have a stake of Zion without Zion. We don’t have a place where people are of one heart and mind, where they dwell in righteousness, and where there are no poor. There is no group even trying to implement that.
What would we need to see to know that Zion is being established?
D&C 105:3-5 3 They have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them; and are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom; Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
We need to see the law of consecration implemented. Right now we have two factions of Babylon fighting about how they want to divide up the pie. Zion can only be built up by principles of righteousness, not principles of Babylon. The Lord’s battles for Zion won’t be fought by politicians in Washington DC.
D&C 105:14 I do not require at their hands to fight the battles of Zion; for, as I said in a former commandment, even so will I fulfil—I will fight your battles.
D&C 103:15-18 The redemption of Zion must needs come by power; therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel. For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm. And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
We will be led out of bondage just like with Moses. Moses did not get into Egyptian politics, force Pharaoh to change the laws and the judges, and have the house of Israel prosper in Egypt. Moses worked miracles and literally led people out of Babylon. As our fathers were led out, so shall we.
D&C 133:4-5 Wherefore, prepare ye, prepare ye, O my people; sanctify yourselves; gather ye together, O ye people of my church, upon the land of Zion, all you that have not been commanded to tarry. Go ye out from Babylon. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.
The commandment isn’t to fix Babylon. It’s to walk away and gather in the land of Zion.
I don’t deny that there are amazing things going on right now. Wars and rumors of wars, political intrigue, disease, pestilence, etc. Those are signs of the times, but they aren’t signs of Zion. But as we see these things going on we should know that the time is coming near, and should be looking for true servants who will act in accordance with the prophecies.
As for religions, I agree. The scriptures denote “church” as a group of people, not an organization or an institution. After we recorded I realized we had focused heavily on religious institutions, rather than groups of people. I actually thought about going back and inserting a disclaimer, but ultimately didn’t. Politicians, bankers, educators, scientists, and many more each have their own “church”, and all are opposed to the true church of God. We should be applying 2 Nephi 28 to far more than just religious organizations.
I think it is a mistake to focus on consecration as the sole indication of whether or not a group is moving in the direction of Zion. What would you say of this as a starting point:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”
We have many modern failed experiments in creating “Zion” societies where the focus is on outward redistribution of wealth without first creating societies where opportunity, hard work (with the expectation of benefiting from the fruits of that work) and also generosity and compassion toward the less fortunate are fostered in the hearts and minds of the citizens. However imperfect America might be, it has fostered an environment where people voluntarily give from their own abundance or poverty to those who are in need of help, both within our own borders and throughout the world.
Where I think we most disagree is how we expect God to bring about Zion. You talk of walking away from Babylon. I believe our hearts must be healed before walking away is even possible, otherwise we will bring Babylon with us wherever we go. I am looking forward to your discussion on Jacob 5 because that has become my blueprint for the establishment of Zion. According to my understanding, the vineyard will all be made Zion in a gradual process as the worst offenders are cleared away and the branches are worked with so that they become capable of bearing good fruit. There is nothing in scripture that indicates the servants cannot work within and through governments, voting systems, or social movements.
My main point in bringing up the topic is not so much to change your mind as to point out the danger of fighting against God’s work, which might not be easily identified by any particular label or person. If a political movement is facilitating the gathering of Israel in some respect, or if leaders within the Great and Abominable Church end up having their crimes publicly exposed and are prosecuted for them, these are signs of the times we can watch for also. I have a feeling that most people will miss the live show because they are invested in a certain narrative which might be completely wrong. It will only be after everything plays out that they are given the summary to make sense of what happened.
I agree there have been many failed attempts to create Zion societies. The Lord has told us through scripture it can only be done according to his laws – chief of which is the law of consecration being administered by authorized servants. Even if we tried to follow the scriptural process perfectly, without the gift of the Holy Ghost it would fail. It will not be an organic process. It will be miraculous. Isaiah 66:8
Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
All scriptural indications point to this happening quickly.
When God called Israel out of Egypt, their hearts were not healed before Moses showed up. They struggled to accept Moses’ leadership and fretted and worried as they were pursued by Pharaoh’s army. Then Pharaoah’s army was destroyed in the sea and the people began to understand. The Lord tells us that as Israel was saved back then, so shall it be with us. That doesn’t mean that people trying to make society more equitable and just is a wasted effort. It isn’t. It’s a commandment. And it could be a necessary part of laying the groundwork to prepare for the return of the servants. But I see a difference between preparatory work and the actual work. The signs of the times tell us that we’re getting close, not that it has started yet.
It seems like we’re both on the same spectrum, we just differ in how far along that spectrum we are. Delving into those differences gets too far from the scriptures and too far into politics for this site.
My comments are actually less about politics than they are an attempt to paint in the details of what might (or might not) be happening, according to what the scriptures actually do say. I disagree that Moses was not a political leader. He was a recognizable national figure at the time of his mission, and he was the undisputed national leader after they left Egypt. Both the Egyptians and the Israelites complained about what he was doing.
I also think that times are relative. We know that the hearts of the Israelites were not healed when Moses showed up, nor after crossing the Red Sea, nor after being fed manna. However, the 40 years they wandered would be considered relatively fast compared to the 400 years they had been in Egypt and the hundreds of years before that when Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living as strangers in a land God had promised would some day be theirs.
I suppose you could say that they practiced consecration when they gave up their gold to build an idol and then shared in the collective punishment afterward, but otherwise they had nothing but the clothes on their backs to share, and God was the one providing everything. Is this the pattern we are waiting to see? Or are we waiting for servants who come to a people who have almost lost all hope, who are helpless to save themselves, and are rescued without any personal effort, often complaining about the person and process God is using to help them? Again, I am not attempting to identify any specific person as “the Servant”. None of us knows who or how this Great and Marvelous Work is going to occur. I only suggest that limiting a perspective to “you will know them when you see them, but they won’t look like this” isn’t really encouraging each of us to use our own efforts to watch for the signs of the times.
“”And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; Watch therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up; but would have been ready. Therefore, be ye also ready; for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his Lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his Lord when he cometh shall find so doing; And verily I say unto you, he shall make him ruler over all his goods.” (Matt. 24:49-54, Mark 13: 52-58) Is that ruler/faithful servant literal or figurative? political or religious? Does it matter? Keep watching.
We know that millions are watching for the servant and such was the case when the Savior came 2,000 years ago. However, at that time the servant was John the baptist whose mission was much different than what they thought it was to be. Likewise, we are watching for the servant whose mission is much different than what we suppose it to be.
Secondly, the twelve were chosen by the Savior and likewise the group chosen here in the last days will be chosen by the Savior. At that time or afterwards they will be sealed to represent his interests here upon the earth. This is our objective, to serve the Savior in this most honored capacity in these last days.
So like the twelve who were chosen by the Savior, they first were watching and we likewise must be watching. Additionally, only twelve were chosen from the thousands at that time and now if the number is correct then only 144,000 (Rev. 7:4, 14:1) will be chosen from the millions that are watching.
You make a distinction between the “latter days” and the “last days”. In the Old testament the same word is used for both, and in the New Testament “latter days” does not appear, and there is the same word used for “last days” and “last day”.
Latter-days H319 aharit, after part, end, from behind
Last-days H319 – same word
Latter-days – not used in NT
Last-days G2078
eschatos (es’-khat-os) adj.
1. farthest, final (of place or time)
[a superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity)]
KJV: ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost