This was an episode we needed to re-record. Coming back to it after 3 years, we realized much of the content was covered in later episodes. So rather than repeat ourselves another time, we decided to just drop this episode and give you more time to listen the other episodes.


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11 comments on “Iron Rod 024 – skipped

  1. Please give your opinion on the ordination of John Willard Young to be an apostle at the age of eleven. It seems to me to tie in somewhat, at least, with the podcast. Thank you

    • Watcher May 21, 2019


      That is another very interesting event in church history which vaguely mirrors the events relating to Joseph Smith Jr. supposedly ordaining his son Joseph to be his successor.

      John Willard Young (October 1, 1844 – February 12, 1924 Son of Brigham Young) is one of the few individuals to have been ordained an apostle of the LDS Church and a member of the First Presidency without ever having been a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

      After privately being ordained an apostle at the age of eleven by Brigham Young, he would eventually be ordained again along with two other sons of Brigham Young, (Brigham Young, Jr. and Joseph Angell Young ). None of the three boys would ever be called into the quorum of the Twelve.

      In my opinion, it was Brigham’s attempt to bypass members of the quorum of the Twelve in succeeding him as the President of the Church. He was hoping to create a family dynasty.

      Another interesting story and somewhat related event in church history has to do with a neighbor of mine when I was a small boy. His name was Alvin R Dyer. Dyer was a prolific author and gospel scholar and was very close to President David O Mckay. In McKay’s later years, he wanted to call Dyer to the Quorum of the Twelve but everyone in the quorum was healthy and it appeared as if there would be no vacancies before McKay would die of old age.

      Hence, McKay ordained Dyer an apostle anyway and made him a member of the First Presidency. In this very unusual situation, Dyer immediately and temporarily ascended above all of the other senior apostles in the hierarchy while he was in the First Presidency. This created immense jealously and resentment among members of the twelve.

      McKay assumed that this would force his successor to put Dyer into the Quorum of the Twelve when he died. However that would not be the case. Joseph Fielding Smith bypassed Dyer and called and ordained someone else to fill the vacancy in the quorum of the Twelve at the death of McKay. This left Dyer as an apostle without membership in the quorum of the First Presidency or the Twelve.

      After McKay’s death in 1970, Dyer was made an Assistant to the Twelve Apostles, and later he was put in the First Quorum of the Seventy when it was reconstituted in 1976. Dyer is the only person in LDS church history to serve in the First Quorum of Seventy after having been ordained to the office of Apostle. It was very embarrassing to him

      Dyer once gave a very controversial and racist talk about the preexistence called “for what purpose?” to a group of missionaries. Years later when I was on my mission, the talk was circulating among missionaries. Bruce R McConkie came to my mission and asked everyone who had a copy of the talk to hand it in to him so he could burn it. The theology about the pre-existence in the talk is quite fascinating. It can be read here

      Sorry to ramble.

      • Thank you the ramble was most interesting and brings up another thought. Somewhere I came across the idea that President Benson wanted H. Verlan Andersen to be an apostle but other apostles disagreed and he was put in the Seventy. I only mention this because it is a curiosity to me that if the Lord is speaking and all are in tune then a consistent message should come through. Just saying. I will follow that link and then try to figure out which apostle is more consistent with the scriptures.

        • I had a book by Alvin R. Dyer in the mission field called The Challenge. I referred to it often, underlined it and pondered it. He encouraged missionaries to present an invitation for baptism early in the teaching process, even at the first meeting, and he had good success with this in his missionary work.

          • Watcher May 22, 2019

            Yes I remember that approach that he suggested. It would be many years later that the church would begin to implement that concept. Dyer was an out of the box thinker and innovator. A concept that blew my mind in his “what does it mean” talk to the missionaries is that there had been a judgment between the pre-existence and this life:

            “You remember the scripture that missionaries very
            often use in Corinthians when Paul is speaking of the three
            divisions of people. We often use the scripture as a
            resurrection scripture, but we do not apply it properly. If you
            will read if carefully, it says “Such are they in the
            resurrection.” 6 Which means that Paul is calling to the
            attention of those that listen to him that there are three
            Degrees of Glory of people, who are in preparation on the
            earth while they live here…

            Therefore, the people who are living upon
            the earth today are the embryos of these three kingdoms.

            There were three divisions of mankind in the pre-existence, and
            when you are born into this life, you are born into one of
            these three divisions of people. There is an imposed
            judgment placed upon everyone who leaves the Spirit World
            just the same as there will be when they leave this life and go
            into one of three places.

            When they left the Spirit World,
            they had already been judged by what they had done in the
            Spirit World and in their previous life. From the judgment is
            determined how they shall be born in this life”

        • Watcher May 22, 2019

          Yes I have heard that rumor to. I also heard that after the death of Benson, Anderson was paid a visit by two of the brethren and told that there were four topics he was not allowed to speak about anymore. Seems like constitutional issues, secret combinations, and the evil threat of communism were in the mix. Of course all of this is not clearly documented and should be considered questionable until serious historical documentation and the law of witnesses can be employed.

          My wife and I met with brother Anderson less than a year before his death and he spoke to us at length about his past relationships with President Mckay and Benson. The majority of the conversation had to do with his belief that “licensing” by the government (business licenses, marriage licenses, etc.) was not the proper responsibility of Government and was unconstitutional. In his book, “the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil”, he claims that Government is the great Church of the Devil that controls the masses and their religions and has caused the masses to submit themselves to that authority.

  2. DeeAnn jennings May 25, 2019

    Should d and c 123 be included in this. It talks about inherited lies and their effects.

    • Watcher May 25, 2019

      Lots of great stuff in that section.

      One of the biggest stumbling blocks that prevented people from converting to the restored church were the “inherited lies” from Protestantism. Yet the enemies of the church were publishing lies about the restoration. In Section 123 Joseph is calling for the correcting of lies that were being published about the saints of the restoration movement.

      Interestingly, four generations later, it is we latter day saints that have inherited lies from our fathers because of the doctrinal corruption that has take place.

      I love the admonition that we should “waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness

      That is a great mandate behind the effort to identify the precepts of men that have been introduced into modern Mormonism and accepted as true doctrine instead of recognizing them as “hidden things of darkness

      After identifying a false doctrine, we should study the original truth that has been revealed in scripture and publish the truth.

  3. Seeker May 25, 2019

    May I recommend an excellent in-depth book on this same subject: “Teaching for Doctrine the Commandments of Men: Tradition in Modern Mormonism” by Rob Smith. It’s available for free on his blog, “Upward Thought”, on blogspot dot com, as are his five other books. These include “Seek Ye this Jesus: Hearing, Seeing, and Dwelling with God”, and “The Glory of God is Intelligence: Acquiring and Disseminating Light and Truth.” Rob Smith is a young fellow who lives in Montana I believe.

  4. Thirsty Sep 22, 2019

    Watcher mentioned Mormon 8:33 as a way to combats the false teachings among us and it hit me in a way that I hadn’t thought of before.

    33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

    I had always thought of the term revelations to mean ALL revealed scripture. However, upon digging I found this:

    “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none; for without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; ”

    To come out of this damnation we’re to “look unto the revelations”. This is a HUGE shift away from the LDS church’s injunction to read from the Book of Mormon daily.

    Could it be said that if we want to see clearly we’d need to study the D&C or Book of Commandments more regularly than we’re to read and study the Book of Mormon?

    Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.