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The Lord teaches us in scripture that tithing is to be used primarily for the poor. In this episode, we explore how we can come to know the Lord through dealing justly with the poor who will always be among us. We also discuss how we are actually stealing form the poor through our corrupted tithing system and share how we personally have chosen to address this situation.
Scriptures cited include:
Matthew 7:22-23
JST Matthew 25:11
D&C 112:24-26
Jeremiah 22:16
Psalms 140:12
Deuteronomy 15:11
Psalms 41:1
Proverbs 14:21
Proverbs 28:27
James 1:27
Mormon 8:35-37
2 Nephi 13:12-15
2 Nephi 28:12-14
Matthew 25:31-45
D&C 119
D&C 52:40
D&C 104:18
D&C 38:35
D&C 83:6
D&C 85:3
JST Genesis 14:37-39
Proverbs 22:22-23
Great topic, guys! One of my favorites and so important.
Every time a new temple or chapel is built, I wonder how many soup kitchens, laundry/shower facilities, shelters could have been set up with that tithing money. Sad.
Last month’s 5th Sunday lesson in my ward was actually about self-reliance. As I sat there, I had the thought that we as a church, as a people, have got it backwards. We hear so much about the importance of being temporally self-reliant, while we are taught to be spiritually dependent upon the leaders. Really, we are to work out our own salvation through faith and study, relying on the Lord only, while, according to the celestial law of consecration, we are to work together to provide for everyone’s temporal needs so there will be “no poor among us.”
To touch lightly on the political aspect of this, I’ve come to realize that communism is the satanic version of consecration, where a corrupt and greedy government forces citizens to “tithe” through taxes, but pockets most of the money or wastes it, versus a voluntary system coordinated by a Bishop with the High Priesthood, inspired by the Spirit to fairly and properly distribute the collected goods and resources, while the people work hard to be good stewards over their portion.
I think many people instinctively and spiritually recognize that as the ideal, which is why people always fall for communism/socialism. But, as we know, without the fullness on the earth, it will always end badly.
Temporally self-reliant and spiritually dependent. That’s a great way to describe it…I’m going to use that.
On this tax day, I’m going to revise your statement: Even the current US government “is the satanic version of consecration, where a corrupt and greedy government forces citizens to “tithe” through taxes, but pockets most of the money or wastes it.” After filing my taxes today, I just wish I was forced to pay only 10% of my gross!
I’ll second that about the taxes and the waste we spend on shopping malls and temples. I’ll also add some scriptures that popped into my mind this morning while thinking about what you guys said from Mosiah 4:
19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.
21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.
22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.
24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.
25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.
26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.
One of my favorite chapters in the Book of Mormon about taking care of the poor is found in Mosiah 4.
This is taken from a talk that Elder Holland gave in 1996.
“King Benjamin says of the Atonement and the remission of sins:
“If God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, … O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.” “Succor those that stand in need of your succor; … administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need.” “Are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have?”
“For the sake of retaining a remission of your sins,” King Benjamin concludes, “… ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.”
Searcher and MD, your way of tithing is how Rock Waterman does it or at least did when he lived in Sacramento.
Any comment on how the JST Matthew 7:33 differs from 3 Ne. 14:23. Others came from the inspiration and gift of God, yet, why are they different?
Thirsting:
There are other examples in Scripture of Joseph making a change in one place but not another. If I were to speculate I would say that it was probably due to timing or focus on his part. I would obviously place priority on the inspired change over the original Biblical text.
We also know that there is more Scripture yet to come. Perhaps there are just enough inconsistencies to give those inclined to wrest the Scriptures enough rope to hang themselves.
2 Nephi 31:3 tells us that “the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.” I speculate that, in 1829, most people’s understanding wasn’t ready for all the changes to key teachings from the Bible. So most of the Bible references in the BoM were almost identical, then in 1831 the Inspired Version began to reveal some of the changes. I think it’s also significant that the Inspired Bible was not published during Joseph’s life, so few even knew about the changes back then. Could those changes have proven to be a stumbling block for the people back then? Perhaps. And we know from history they already had more stumbling blocks than they could handle.
Loved this topic, thank you for all of the insights. If I may add a scripture from Doctrine and Covenants 104:16,
“But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low.”
The Lord is pretty clear about the poor being lifted as a result of the “well off” lowering their living standard so that the poor may be “better off”.
Also, very interesting to me that the Church has “wrested” this verse to hijack “the Lord’s own way” to mean self reliance when this verse clearly demonstrates what His way is.
This is a sensitive topic for me, because the mishandling and theft of funds given to the church in good faith really boils my blood.
Thank you again for the objective support for my subjective views.
Also, I’d like to say thank you for bringing to my attention other options for paying tithing, as I am no longer in a position to support anyone financially.