This week’s topic has several interesting angles: are the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit the same thing or different? Is the Holy Ghost a personage? What is the gift of the Holy Ghost and how does one receive it? Can we receive it today? Not only do we answer those questions, but there’s also a special musical number by Searcher.
Lectures on Faith 5:2, questions 13 and 14
2 Nephi 31:14
3 Nephi 19:11-14
3 Nephi 7:21-22
That guitar solo!!! Strong work brothers.
I wanted to mention that in the Book of Revelation, the Holy Ghost is referenced in Verse 13:2 as the great authority. Of course the reference to the godhead in that verse is somewhat satirical but the description of the Godhead is correct. The verse reads “And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”
That is, the dragon (false god) gave him (the beast) his power (the function of the 1st member of the Godhead), and his seat (the function of the 2nd member of the Godhead), and great authority (the function of the 3rd member of the Godhead). As you can see, John is telling us that the dragon, although a false god, represents himself as the true power (God the Father), he also represents himself as holding the seat of salvation (The Christ), and he represents himself as the great authority (the Holy Ghost). Since the celestial kingdom is truly the great authority, then the third member of the Godhead represents that kingdom in the Godhead. Although he may be an individual, he is accountable to us with regard to the laws of that kingdom. Thus we have in our lives the Father that is the power of our creation in the kingdom, we also have the Christ that is the seat of our salvation in the kingdom, and the Holy Ghost that is the great authority of our participation in the kingdom; something like that. I did not say “into the kingdom” because the condition of The Fathers power in our lives, as well as the seat of the salvation of Christ in our lives, and the great authority of the Holy Ghost in our lives is an eternal condition, and not merely a condition for the entrance into the celestial kingdom.
What about Doctrine and Covenants 121:46?
Well that’s just downright embarrassing! I can’t speak for Searcher, but I had used companionship when searching and it didn’t match with companion, so I never made the connection. Even worse, it was already underlined in my paper scriptures!
Good catch on finding that passage.
I think the main point being made in the podcast is that there is no scriptural basis for the current teaching that little children and others receive the constant companionship of the holy ghost at the time of confirmation after baptism.
The passage in section 121 seems to be referring to a blessing related to the doctrine of the priesthood being revealed and distilled upon someone after they have shown forth charity for their fellow man and virtue has garnished their thoughts, resulting in their confidence waxing strong in the presence of God. The passage seems more likely to be suggesting that a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, follows calling and election and the second comforter, rather than water baptism.
One could also argue that the ending passage of that section was directed specifically to Joseph Smith, the designated holder of the scepter of righteousness.
Bottom-line, if that is the only passage that speaks of the possibility of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, how did we get the current tradition of teaching that all baptized members are given the constant companionship following baptism when we all know that we actually only enjoy the intermittent companionship of the Holy Ghost at best.
The best that I can come up with is that the Holy Ghost is a connection to the Celestial Kingdom. Thus, the three members of the Godhead are: God the Father, Lord Jesus, and the Celestial Kingdom. Thus, the gift of the Holy Ghost is a gift connecting us to that kingdom. However, I do not know the particulars of it all. So it seems that the gift is not the promise that comes from the Savior alone.
So there is a gift and there is a promise and each pertain to the kingdom. However, once the promise is obtained then the gift can not be denied.
Additionally, I have often thought that the first presidency over this earth is Lord Jesus, Michael, and John. I may have already mentioned this but these three in addition to God the Father are the four beasts of Revelation Chapter 4.
Great show, guys!
Something I wanted to comment a few shows ago, but didn’t get to it, is a word link between the foundation era and our day. In section 123 v 7, Joseph writes from Liberty Jail “of that spirit which hath so strongly RIVETED the creeds of the fathers, who have inherited lies, upon the hearts of the children, and filled the world with confusion…”
In 1996, M. Russell Ballard wrote/spoke,
“Keep your eyes RIVETED on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot. Let me tell you why. Every week that I am in town, I attend a meeting of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve on the fourth floor of the Salt Lake Temple. If you could see the process by which decision and direction comes from that meeting, you would have a deep sense of confidence and comfort that the will of the Lord is being taught by the leaders of the Church.
So keep your eyes RIVETED on the leadership of the Church.”
Anyway, I just thought that was an interesting connection.
That is a RIVITING connection! We are so tied down by tradition that we fail to see ourselves in Scripture. We hear over and over and over and over again how we need to place our trust in men, instead of in the word of God.
Great use of word searching technology to draw an interesting and significant parallel.
You are speaking to the choir. Recently I was visiting with a follower of Denver Snuffer and it seems that they (the followers of Suffer) have simply swapped out Nelson for Snuffer. Like; “Just trust in Snuffer because he will not lead you astray.” It seems that they are so needy of a leader that the Savior will not suffice. I am so grateful for this site so that I can learn for myself and follow no man but Lord Jesus.
I agree Snufferites are mostly people who are not happy with the LDS church and went to another false prophet. http://seekingyhwh.com/resources/denver-snuffer/
Thanks again guys. I have a couple questions for you.
If we don’t have the Melchizedek priesthood today, sounds like no one can currently have the Gift of the Holy Ghost?
Do you consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be the only organization today that has the Aaronic priesthood?
Lastly, on the topic of the nature of God, with your take that God is a personage of spirit and that the King Follet sermon isn’t doctrinally correct, what are your thoughts for us after this life? If we don’t progress to become gods ourselves, what happens?
I understand that this question is posed to Watcher, Searcher and MD. For what it is worth I will put in my 2 cents.
I believe that Nephi echos God’s expectation for us when he encourages us to “feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things”. We also know that the Holy Ghost will tell us or show us all things. It is intriguing that this phrase is attributed to both… I share Searchers sentiment when he said that he knows of no better way to become acquainted with the Spirit than to dive into the scriptures.
Keyword search the Holy Ghost. Keyword search the priesthood. Read and keyword search the Lectures on Faith (may I suggest lecture 5 on the Godhead). Ours is the opportunity to get out of our own way, to dive in and to let God impart his wisdom.
Q gives some good advice. We can quote scriptures that paint a different picture than what the modern Church teaches, but each person needs to search themselves and ask God personally for an answer. It doesn’t really matter if I believe something is true or not.
On the King Follet sermon, the first thing to note is that it isn’t in the scriptures. We have a non-scriptural source that contradicts the scriptures – yet we have been taught to give it supremacy over the word of God. I encourage you to search the scriptures to see what they say happens after this life. You’ll find ideas like “joint heirs with Christ” and “when he comes, we shall be like him” and “they shall dwell in the presence of God forever”.
Well I appreciate the response. I hope my inquiry wasn’t interpreted as attacking. It’s certainly not, I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from regarding some ideas that are new to me.
Definitely not perceived as an attack. No worries.
Recently came across this podcast, thanks for it, I have enjoyed most of what I hear you guys sharing.
I wish I would have come across it a little sooner as the tid bit about the scribes not agreeing about the Holy Ghost in D&C 130 would have been useful for my latest post.
This is my Shavuot/Pentecost post. I primarily talk about the HOLY SPIRIT/HOLY GHOST. I also bring up the temple and the Lectures on Faith. The post ends with an index of sixteen concepts that are used with both phrases of HOLY SPIRIT and HOLY GHOST.
I bring up some other things you guys talk about also like baptism is done after we make a covenant, from Mosiah 18.
At the end of the post I do have an index of terms that are used for Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost, but I want to make one for all the scriptures, but that would be a lot of work.
I like your scriptural analysis of Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit. You’ve produced quite an exhaustive list of scriptures that are a valuable resource. Thanks for sharing!
Your welcome, and thank you for doing this podcast. I learned some new things from it.
You should end an episode with a shofar. https://www.theshofarman.com/cartbestyem.htm
I don’t think anything will ever top Searcher’s guitar solo!
Regarding Acts 10:44-47 I’d have to do some thinking on it, as I’m not sure what is going on. In a post I wrote a while back ago, Baptisms Order, https://seekingyhwh.com/2016/10/07/baptisms-order/ , I bring out BoM verses that state the order does matter, meaning baptism of water and baptism of fire and holy ghost. BoM uses words like first and then. I even bring out those who received the baptism of fire in Helaman 5 were DISSENTERS meaning they were part of the church before and thus were baptized.
Great insight about “dissenters”. I hadn’t made that connection, but it’s so obvious once you point it out. Especially Helaman 5:35. Duh!
I suspect Acts 10 is the exception that proves the rule. Peter had no precedent to rely on. Even though he had received the vision, and seen the faith of Cornelius, it wasn’t until he saw the Holy Ghost fall on them that he knew God truly approved of baptizing Gentiles into the house of faith…because God had demonstrated his approval with the same manifestation that Peter himself had received at Pentecost. Once Peter tells the Church that Gentiles can be baptized, we see no other instance of someone receiving the Holy Ghost prior to baptism by water.
There are things we all miss, and hopefully we help expound scriptures to bring each other to truth.
It is the Bible and the Book of Mormon that shall confound false doctrines, not sayings of modern people.
2 Nephi (LDS 3:12) (RLDS 2:19-23) Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
I came upon this in the history of the Church. In volume 1, Chapter 7:
We now became anxious to have that promise realized to us, which the angel that conferred upon us the Aaronic Priesthood had given us, viz., that provided we continued faithful, we should also have the Melchizedek Priesthood, which holds the authority of the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We had for some time made this matter a subject of humble prayer, and at length we got together in the chamber of Mr. Whitmer’s house, in order more particularly to seek of the Lord what we now so earnestly desired; and here, to our unspeakable satisfaction, did we realize the truth of the Savior’s promise—“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you”— for we had not long been engaged in solemn and fervent prayer, when the word of the Lord came unto us in the chamber,60.1 commanding us that I should ordain Oliver Cowdery to be an Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ; and that he also should ordain me to the same office; and then to ordain others, as it should be made known unto us from time to time. We were, however, commanded to defer this our ordination until such times as it should be practicable to have our brethren, who had been and who should be baptized, assembled together, when we must have their sanction to our thus proceeding to ordain each other, and have them decide by vote whether they were willing to accept us as spiritual teachers or not; when also we were commanded to bless bread and break it with them, and to take wine, bless it, and drink it with them; afterward proceed to ordain each other according to commandment; then call out such men as the Spirit should dictate, and ordain them; and then attend to the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, upon all those whom we had previously baptized, doing all things in the name of the Lord. The following commandment will further illustrate the nature of our calling to this Priesthood, as well as that of others who were yet to be sought after:
And then in Chapter 8, there is this moment when the Church was organized:
Having opened the meeting by solemn prayer to our Heavenly Father, we proceeded, according to previous commandment, to call on our brethren to know whether they accepted us as their teachers in the things of the Kingdom of God, and whether they were satisfied that we should proceed and be organized as a Church according to said commandment which we had received. To these several propositions they consented by a unanimous vote. I then laid my hands upon Oliver Cowdery, and ordained him an Elder of the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints;” after which, he ordained me also to the office of an Elder of said Church. We then took bread, blessed it, and brake it with them; also wine, blessed it, and drank it with them. We then laid our hands on each individual member of the Church present, that they might receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and be confirmed members of the Church of Christ. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us to a very great degree—some prophesied, whilst we all praised the Lord, and rejoiced exceedingly.
This happened before the restoration of the highest priesthood at the Morley Farm, then how could they (Joseph and Oliver) , lay hands to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost?
It is possible that there is a difference between a preliminary laying on of hands by the authority of the lesser priesthood while praying for a full endowment to take place in the future as opposed to the final bestowal once the fulness of priesthood has been bestowed?
The account in the history of the church states that “The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us to a very great degree”
That sounds like a portion of the Holy Ghost was present, not necessarily the full endowment.
Why else would there be such anticipation of a future endowment similar to the day of penticost that was to take place at the Kirtland temple?
While doing a keyword search on “fully come” I was intrigued to find other keyword similarities in wording between the account in the NT of the day of Pentecost vs the account in section 110 of the vision behind the veil.
Notice how the term “fully come” only shows up in the two following passages. Further, one account speaks of the “sound of a **rushing** mighty wind” while the other speaks of the sound of a “sound of the **rushing** of great waters”
1 And when the day of Pentecost was **fully come**, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a **sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind**, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and **his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters**, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and **the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house**
14 Behold, the time has **fully come**, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
May be just a coincidence that the term “fully come” shows up in the two different accounts accompanied with a great “rushing” sound, however, the keyword may show up in both accounts to show a related spiritual endowment.
Section 110 declares not only that a future endowment will take place on others, but that an endowment did take place upon Joseph and Oliver.
In the past I only associated 110 with the promise of the Savior about a future endowment and the delivery of keys by Moses and Abraham and a declaration by Elijah, HOWEVER I am now open to the possibility that a literal endowment of the Holy Ghost similar to the day of Penticost took place upon Joseph and Oliver which prepared them for teir return and the final event that will take place in the future at the Kirtland Temple.
wherein others will receive an endowment.
Could this be the answer to Joseph’s petition in the Dedicatory Prayer just one week prior in D&C 109:14-15?
14 And do thou grant, Holy Father, that all those who shall worship in this house may … grow up in thee, and receive a FULNESS OF THE HOLY GHOST
Yesterday, we were searching the scriptures for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We were looking if there was an actual ordinance (as are with the sacrament and baptism) in the scriptures. The wording of that ordinance in the modern day church has changed over the years.
36 And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of these sayings, he touched with his hand the disciples whom he had chosen, one by one, even until he had touched them all, and spake unto them as he touched them.
37 And the multitude heard not the words which he spake, therefore they did not bear record; but the disciples bare record that he gave them power to give the Holy Ghost. And I will show unto you hereafter that this record is true.
We came to the idea that something else may be been going on, perhaps the 2nd blessings, or the calling and election made sure. In the modern church, it is the disciples that administer this ordinance in the Temple..
Coincidently, this morning we listened to your podcast on the Holy Ghost and you had a different conclusion in that the disciples were given the ability to “give” the Holy Spirit in 3 Nephi 18
That is confusing that there would be two ways to receive the Holy Ghost and be cleansed by fire. Are you confident in your understanding that there isn’t something deeper going on with Jesus Christ when he touched His disciples?
I think the answer is in verse 37 that you quoted…Christ “gave them power to GIVE the Holy Ghost”, not to receive the Holy Ghost. In verse 37, it says the multitude did not hear the words Christ spoke to them, but the disciples bare record of it. In Moroni 2, we can read that record:
1 The words of Christ, which he spake unto his disciples, the twelve whom he had chosen, as he laid his hands upon them—
2 And he called them by name, saying: Ye shall call on the Father in my name, in mighty prayer; and after ye have done this ye shall have power that to him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost; and in my name shall ye give it, for thus do mine apostles.
3 Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing; and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it; and on as many as they laid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost.
That same pattern was revealed in the Doctrine and Covenants:
D&C 20…the duty of an elder:
41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;
43 And to confirm the church by the laying on of the hands, and the giving of the Holy Ghost;
For he shall lay his hands upon thee, and thou shalt receive the Holy Ghost, and thy time shall be given to writing, and to learning much.
And whoso having faith you shall confirm in my church, by the laying on of the hands, and I will bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost upon them.
And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon, and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;
And again, it shall come to pass that on as many as ye shall baptize with water, ye shall lay your hands, and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and shall be looking forth for the signs of my coming, and shall know me.